Frequently Asked Questions

Hello, I am writing you in hopes that you might be able to help me. I am very desperate to discover some information about my Grandfather. He worked for the Santa Fe RR for many years. In 1928 he was residing in Prescott, Az. When the RR sent him to CA. my mother was born in San Bernadino County during this trip. What I need to know is, is there some way for me to find info. on my Grandfathers employment with Santa Fe RR. I need to get a copy of his birth Cert. and or Death Cert. But I can not due either until I have a birth date and death date which I am hoping would be in his past employment records. I can not express how vitaly important all this is. If you could direct me or anything I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank- you for your time,

Sincerely - Kimberly (1-07-02)

Not knowing the answer to this question, I emailed long time supporter Stan Kistler, and here is a portion of Stans response -

"As to your other inquiry about employment records, the Kansas State Historical Society in Topeka got most of the Santa Fe company records and have them archived in their library. It is possible that employment records are here. Contact by email: cmenninger@hspo.wpo.state.ks.us." (1-08-02)

Could you tell me how to get a copy of 'Cajon: A Pictorial Album' by Chard Walker referenced in the article in The Crew Car vol. 22, February 2002?

Thank you,

Gary Zimmer (2-12-02)

Gary,

This is a pretty scarce book, and it occasionally comes up on Ebay. Right now there are two books up on ebay from Chard, but neither is the book your looking for. You might also check the 'Whistle Stop' in Pasadena, they carry used railroad books and might have one.

SBRHS Webmaster (2-12-02)

What is it's use? I am not familiar with power reverse but does this have to do with that system?

Can I get ahold of some accurate drawings, for most if not all of the engine? I will be needing some on my venture to replicate the #3777. A later version of the 3751. Which will be in 1.6" Scale.

-JJII / webmaster@horizonrail.com (5-28-02)

The third cylinder located on top of the valve chest is called a Wagner by-pass valve. Santa Fe used these on all their 4-8-4s, later Hudson's and the late Texans, 2-10-4s.

The way the by-pass works is when the engineer opens the throttle the by-pass opens the admission ports letting steam into the cylinders. When the throttle is closed when the locomotive goes into a long downgrade drift (no power) the by-pass closes and covers the admission ports. Also a by-pass port opens allowing steam in the cylinder to pass from one end to the other back and forth as the engine is drifting or coasting. The advantage to this is that the steam contains steam oil which lubricates the cylinder walls. If the throttle were closed on a conventional engine the steam would just pass through and no lubrication would be present and the walls would score. So in a conventional engine the throttle is left open slightly to maintain steam and lubrication.

Santa Fe operated in mountainous territory and liked the Wagner valves because it was actually a cost saving device. If the throttle were closed on these long drifts then no steam was being used and a smaller fire could be set. When a railroad, Santa Fe, ran these many miles then the nickels in fuel saved per engine per mile added up quickly.

The action of the valve is that there are two pistons separated by a large spring. When the throttle is closed the spring holds the pistons over the admission ports uncovering the drifting ports. When the throttle is opened then the steam pushes on the ends of the pistons, sliding them back over the drifting ports uncovering the admission ports.

Accurate drawings have been produced for model railroader magazine, but have not yet been published.

Bob Kittel/Chief Mechanical Officer SBRHS (5-28-02)

First, your web site is simply awesome!

On page http://www.sbrhs.org/2002schedule.html you have an anchor tag that doesn't match the image it is connected to, the title of that tag that appears when you hover over that link is: 'California Golds' Huell Hauser Doing Segment On Board Canyon Rails Limited', Is this still true? Will Huell Howser be on board filming one of his shows?

Mike Kimura (8-02-02)

Mike,

Thanks for the great compliments; we really appreciate your feedback. I have seen your name on some of the boards before, and recognized that you have publicly appreciated the site before, we thank you for that!

I just looked at the anchor tag and you are correct, it does describe another story that never actually worked out. Huell had planned to ride the train for an outbound segment but a scheduling problem came up and that is no longer the case. Sorry to get your hopes up! We have been talking to Huells producer for many years, and unfortunately have never seemed to be able to get it worked out. It's not that either of us doesn’t want to do it, it has been because there have been conflicts in scheduling. We hope to some day work it out.

Thanks for alerting me to my mistake, keep up the good work!

SBRHS Webmaster (8-02-02)

William,

Wow, that was a quick reply. Thanks!

> Thanks for the great compliments; we really appreciate your feedback.

The photos on the SBRHS site are top notch! I think you have THE best steam locomotive web site!

> We have been talking to Huells producer for many years, and

> unfortunately have never seemed to be able to get it worked out.

Hopefully some day. I'm a HUGE fan of Huell's shows. I know he did a show on the San Bernardino station and plans on a followup show when the refubishment is completed. Perhaps 3751 might find its way into that followup show some day....

Unfortunately due to vacation plans at the end of August I won't be able to ride 3751 to Williams. I heard single day trips are now being offered but $185 to Needles is probably more than I can afford with two vacations planned in August.

Take care, thanks for the reply and the fine work on your web site!

Hope ATSF 3751 has a great trip to the Grand Canyon!

Mike (8-08-02)

Dear Webmaster:

My 2 year old son is so excited about trains. He wants to watch "3751 The return to steam" video all the time. I have 2 questions:

1. I followed and photographed the 3751 back in 1991. Can you tell me what passenger cars were used on the LA to Bakersfield & return run. I.e. 1 Santa Fe Streamlined Baggage, 2 Santa Fe Streamlined Coach ext ext?

2. When & where will the 2nd day of the return from the Grand Canyon be? i.e. Leaving Barstow on the 25 of August @ 8:00am

We would like to model the 1991 train in HO scale with a Brass Northern, 2 Athearn FP-45s ( already have these ) and the correct Passenger cars ( need to buy )

We would also for my son's 2nd birthday like to take him to see the 3751 as it returns to Los Angeles from the Grand Canyon ( following it from Barstow back to LA ).

Thank You,

The Comptons/Winnetka, CA. (8-02-02)

Dear Comptons,

The schedule is posted on the web page, follow this link and go to nearly the end of the page. (The answer to the other question about the consist in 1991 took a couple of weeks as the webmaster was on the road with the locomotive when this question came in).

3751 –1991 Trip consist refined

Note: * Name reflects current owners preference.

1. ex-ATSF baggage - SBRHS Tool Car - PS 19++

2. ex-SAL 6004 bag-dorm-coach-diner “Santa Cruz” 800162, Budd 1940 *

3. ex-ATSF 10-6 sleeper “Palm Leaf” 800237. ACF 1949

4. ex-SP 2981 barbershop-bar-lounge “Overland Trail” 800633. PS 1949 *

5. ex-CN 2087 10-6 sleeper “Norma Peterson” 800361. PS 1949 *

6. ex -? 6-6-4 sleeper “Regina Wendt” 800106. PS 1956 *

7. ex-VIA 1083 2cp-2db-lounge “Belle McKee” 800029. PS 1954 *

8. ex-PRR 1dr-3db-buffet-lounge “Colonial Crafts” 800061. PS 1949

9. ex-CPR 4210 baggage-express “Pony Express” 800320. CCF 1941 *

10. ex-UP 6-6-4 sleeper “National Forum” 800204. PS 1956

11. ex-PM 113 bar-lounge “Eagle Canon” 800079. PS 1950 *

12. ex ACL 257 tavern-lounge-obs 800080. Budd 1947.

13. ex-SAL 6108 48 seat diner “New River Gorge” 800215 PS 1947 *

14. ex-CB&Q 320+ dome-coach-buf-lge “Silver Garden” 800287. Budd 1952

15. ex-ATSF 503 dome-lounge “Plaza Santa Fe” 800392. PS 1950

16. ex-CB&Q 377+ 3db-1dr-dome-obs-lge “Silver Solarium” 800333. Budd 1948

SBRHS Webmaster (9-24-02)

William:

I cannot say Thank you enough.

Thanks again,

Bill Compton (9-24-02)

Firstly, are there any drawings published of 3751, preferably in HO scale? She looks to me to be significantly different in some respects to 3781 as modelled by Bachmann!

Secondly, on the return journey from AZ, is the trip booked to go via Fullerton depot on August 26? I'll be in San Diego, visiting friends and would rather like to see an ATSF 4-8-4 in steam if I can.... Alternatively, I might be in LA after 26 August - is it possible to arrange a visit to Redondo to see the loco, please?

Finally keep up the good work - I know from my own experiences with steam here in the UK that there's a lot of effort involved in keeping these beasts rolling on the iron road!

Good luck!Hello Geoff (8-11-02)

Thanks for your interest in our locomotive. The drawings have been drawn and should be published in the Model Railroader Magazine sometime in the future. On the return the locomotive is going through Fullerton. If you want detailed info about Metrolinks system there is a link to their site on the SBRHS site on the links page. Generally Redondo Junction is a closed facility and not open to the public. And as our crews will be coming off of nearly 2 weeks of round the clock duty I’m not sure that trying to arrange a special tour is fair for our hardworking volunteers. We will probably have a regular work party on the following Saturday, and that might be workable – but it would be best to email me after the 26th to see if that’s going to happen – or what the schedule is.

SBRHS Webmaster (8-11-02)

Bill,

Thanks very much for fixing up my visit to see 3751 this morning - Bob Kittel and all the other guys there were very friendly and helpful. By the way, Bob Romoff, the friend who drove me up there, would especially like to thank the guys, and Sam in particular, for helping to fix the alternator on his car; there were no further problems with it after we left Redondo. He also commented that the directions you gave were spot-on.

I hope to hear more of the 3751 in the future and that you guys keep her rolling on the main line, where she belongs, for a long time to come.

If you are ever in the Herefordshire area of England, you are welcome to drop me a line to come and see a couple of British Rail diesel switchers I co-own - not steam, but still good fun!

Regards,

Geoff Loynes (8-31-02)

SBRHS Webmaster

In many of the photos on your site, I notice a diesel locomotive right behind #3751. Is this a requirement of the railroads on which you are travelling, to clear the line in case of a mechanical failure on 3751?

Perhaps a dumb question, but I've been told that there are no dumb questions if you don't know the answer.

Love your site, I visit it often. Plan to join within the next few paychecks. Bringing my grandkids to San Bernardino at 11:40 AM on the 19th for the pass-through.

Best regards,

John Rogers (8-13-02)

Hello John,

Thanks for the compliments on the site, we appreciate them! The reason those diesel locomotives are right back there has three answers. First is that yes, they are a requirement of the host railroad. It usually is called a 'protection locomotive', because if there is a problem it is there to protect the railroads interests by moving equipment out of the way rather than blocking the line. Secondly, a diesel locomotive has the ability to contribute greatly to slow a train down through its dynamic braking capabilities, in addition to the brakes that the train (cars) have. A steam locomotive needs a train behind it to stop properly as it utilizes the brakes of all the cars to stop the train. Lastly, and I think that this is very important for this upcoming trip is that our steam locomotive has appliances to make enough electricity for a radio, headlight, and a few other small items. The appliances on the locomotive were never intended to provide electricity to power lights and air conditioning throughout the train. Those diesel engines provide power to run the amenities. If a train going to Needles - where it is 114 degrees outside - doesn’t have A/C then we will have some very unhappy and uncomfortable passengers.

So it is really a threefold reason, protection, braking, and passenger comfort. Fans don't like them there, but we really don't have any say in removing them. They are a requirement for almost every class 1 railroad in North America - and rightfully so as they provide extra security and comfort for the passenger of a steam powered train.

SBRHS Webmaster (8-13-02)

Hello Ethan,

We would love to have your support, just follow the link back to the website and go to the SUPPORT SBRHS page and follow the instructions. That’s a good place to start.

Next is if you could tell us a little about yourself, your hobbies, your strengths, what you like to do we might be able to figure out where we could best use your abilities as a volunteer - the engine is in Los Angeles and we work on it regular.

SBRHS Webmaster (8-21-02)

(It was listed under two of the four criteria established by the government for inclusion in the National Register. It was listed under Criterion A, events that have made a significant contribution to the broad patterns of our history; and Criterion C, objects that embody the distinctive characterisitics of a type, period, or method of construction, or that represent the work of a master, or that possess high artistic values. Details about the listing can be found at www.cr.nps.gov/nr/nrlist.htm go to 2000 and click on October 13, 2000 and look for California, Los Angeles County. Additional details on the listing can be found at www.nr.nps.gov click on Location and then on State and Data Base Details. Enter CA for the State and 3751 for the Keyword. For information on the law regarding the National Register look for 36 CFR 60 at www.access.gpo.gov/ecfr/).

Jay (8-23-02)

Done! Check it out here on the SBRHS Timeline page.

Webmaster SBRHS (8-24-02)

We have just completed a trip to the Grand Canyon for the NRHS convention, this would have been the trip to come and see!

On today’s class 1 railroads I don’t think it’s realistic to wait for, or expect a trip without diesel support. They provide additional braking capability, they provide electricity for air conditioners that tame the desert, and they are a requirement of the host railroads. They are – I believe, a permanent fixture needed to operate steam locomotives on a class 1 railroad today.

SBRHS Webmaster (10-28-02)

What is the proper color for the lettering on santa fe steam locos, white or silver? I know in photos silver and white both look white, but I have seen some model engines with siliver and some with white. Thanks in advance for any info.

Dave Roxin (11-28-02)

Hello Dave,

The proper color is silver - as the lettering aged on the sides it tended to "caulk out" and looked white -so , if you are "heavy weathering" a loc than I would use white, thanks for asking.

Fred Hill/SBRHS Director (11-28-02)

Hello from Amarillo!

Are there plans for another trip(s) in the works? How does one get to become a crew member and/or a paying passenger?

Garvin Alfrey (1-03-03)

Hello Amarillo!

Thanks for your interest in the 3751. We do have other trips in the works, but nothing that is concrete enough to speak about.

Crew members generally are local supporters who come down regularly if not religiously on the weekends for work parties. They have worked for several years with the rest of the group and have found their spot with the organization - showing their ability to work well with others and having a specialized talent or qualities that make them indispensable. Like some one that was a train brake specialist, good guy to have along on a trip - especially if he can think quickly and solve problems efficiently.

Paying passenger is easy. We will publish that kind of official information on our website, under the Latest News page. You should also go back to the SBRHS Home page and request to be emailed when the site is updated - that way you have the most updated information possible. Thanks again for your interest.

William Ramsey/SBRHS Webmaster (1-04-03)

Dear sir,

I am an avid fan of the 3751. I do have one question though. I live on the east coast and live close to the N&W 611 and the 1218 and I'm an avid modeler. What I would like to ask is do you know of anyone or any company making a model of the 3751 in HO scale for my layout? I know you might not know but any help would be great. Also do you know of how the progress of the 2912 and the 2926 are progressing? Thanks to your help and thank you.

Juan Wilson (2-17-03)

Hello Juan

HO Scale models of ATSF 3751 have been made by Key Imports and Hallmark Models. Regarding the 2912 and 2926, I recommend you contact the respective groups and get "first hand" info - we have our hands full with 3751!

Thanks for your query,

Fred Hill/Director SBRHS (2-17-03)

My apologies if this information is on the site -- but, if it is, I bet it ain't "near the top".

Concernedly,

Steve Church (2-18-03)

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your interest in the locomotive. The engine is stored in Los Angeles at Redondo Junction on Amtrak property, and there lies the problem. Technically we can't have masses of people showing up to look at the engine because of the safety and insurance issues. But for people who are interested we work on the engine practically every Saturday, and we usually set up appointments on those Saturdays so people like yourself can go and look at it, get a tour of it etc.

If you are local, and wish to come down on a Saturday please email me back and I will put you in touch with the proper persons to organize your visit.

SBRHS Webmaster (2-18-03)

Hi,

I was observing a railroad from the air in your area. I can find no information on it.

It winds up from the east shore of the Salton Sea. It has an active interchange with the SP mainline. This rr has very tight curves. At one point it has a long roadbed with no visible track that may be for stopping runaway trains.

Thanks,

Ron Schauble/Kansas City (3-24-03)

Ron,

Thanks for emailing the SBRHS. Our expertise is pretty much centralized on the Santa Fe, however the railroad you speak of is a mining railroad that originates in the ‘Eagle Mountain’ community of mines. It runs about 35 to 40 miles to the SP connection in Ferrum. I believe it is called the Kaiser Steel Railroad.

Have you heard any news about the price of First Class and Coach tickets for the San Diego trip? Do you know what the difference will be between the two fares?

Steve Crise (4-28-03)

Hello Steve,

The fares have not been set yet, but we expect the Central Coast Chapter to update us on this information within the week. The Central Coast Chapter is the organizer for this event and are making all the arrangements (equipment, insurance, schedules and prices), the 3751 is only a piece of leased equipment.

Information will however be updated on the SBRHS website as soon as it is available on the San Diego page. Thanks for your support.

William Ramsey/SBRHS Webmaster (4-28-03)

Hello SBRHS,

Just a quick question for you about your equipment; what is the number of your 'tool car', and is it a former AT&SF streamline baggage car?

Thanks!

Dan

Hello Dan,

Thanks for emailing, it is number 3463, and yes it is a former AT&SF streamline baggage car. It was part of a group (3453-3466) of baggage/mail storage/express cars built in 1950 by ACF for the Santa Fe. They were eventually sold to the Barnum & Bailey Circus and were gutted, the circus then refered to them as 'tunnel cars', after the circus was finished with it Ron Gustafson bought the 3463 at auction. Ron is a past president and long time board member of the SBRHS. The car was loaned to the SBRHS by him to be used as the organizations tool car, following a heavy rebuilding by the SBRHS it has been the base of operations for the Tehachapi & Chicago trips. Hope this sheds a little light on the topic!

SBRHS Webmaster (6-10-03)

Bill:

Regarding the 4-8-4 Comparison page, where did you get the tractive effort information for the ATSF 2926? Last information I had was they were all rated at 66,000 pounds TE. Are you going from the test information of the 2900's?

Txhighballer (6-30-03)

TX,

This (message below) was an interesting conversation I had with our CMO a few weeks ago about this very topic. Comes out, we need to do the math. But a bit of a pandora's box though, which numbers do you use? Santa Fe's numbers, or the laws of mathematics?

SBRHS Webmaster (6-30-03)

"Isn't it interesting that the Santa Fe 4-8-4s, all four classes, have the same tractive effort of 66K. I have heard that this was for some type of accounting practice at the Santa Fe, but I fail to understand why this is.

If you look at the tractive effort of a 2900 at 66K this is ridiculous, 2900's weigh 32,000 pounds more than the 51 class and has higher steam pressure and more horsepower. Also I have heard that the 51 class could start a heavier train than the 2900s due to the big 30" pistons. This is also a story that I cannot prove but does come from the mouths of those who ran them.

If you do the math work on figuring tractive effort for the 51 class then you come up with 71,719. This of course using a different coefficient of friction calculation because of the roller bearings. The RRs didn't use the different methods of figuring and only used .085 for friction bearings for all engines.

The tractive effort figure then for 2900s come to around 86,922 TE. This is why I said that 66K TE for 2900s is crazy.

The computed tractive effort is based upon a coefficient (0.85). This coefficient is the combination of Mean Effective Pressure and a friction term. The friction term is set to '1.0' when roller bearings are specified."

Bob Kittel

SBRHS CMO

Webmaster,

That would jive with what I had read according to an ATSF test on the 3751's and the 2900 class. The ATSF did not use the normal calculations regarding tractive effort. The 3751 with a dynamoter car measured 72,00 lbs. TE. My uncle worked on them out of Winslow, Arizona during the late 40's and 50's and always thought they were stronger than the published rating. As an aside, the 5011 class was rated at 93,000 pounds TE but on the test generated more than 100,000 pounds TE.

Txhighballer (7-01-03)

Dear SBRHS,

I am searching for information regarding the "smokestack" deflector that used to be attached to 3751 smokestacks. This deflector has been referred to by various names in different sources: Orange-peel stack, Smoke Bonnet, Scoop deflector to name a few. This collapsible deflector, when extended over the smokestack, pushed smoke further away from the loco cab. I am searching for a drawing of this kind of smokestack. If you have one, or have suggestions as to where I might obtain one, I would appreciate the information.

Thank you for your time and interest,

Matt R. Ashba

Hi Mark,

The deflector you described was used to push the smoke backwards across the top of the locomotive and to also keep the exhaust blast from hitting the tunnel ceiling. The 3751 has this device but not any drawings for it. We do have drawings for the traditional smoke lifter, the straight up type.

If you need the clamshell type I would suggest contacting the library at the California State Railroad Museum.

Bob Kittel (12-3-03)

How fast is your steam locomotive?

Alan

Interesting question.

On our trip of over ten years ago to Chicago we were allowed to run the 3751 at 79 MPH. She handled the speed and train with ease. On our recent trip to Williams AZ, Grand Canyon we were restricted to 70 MPH. Once again she handled her train at that speed.

When Santa Fe owned and ran the 3751 they had her in 100 MPH service for both freight and passenger. Once the 3765 class steam locomotives came on board the Santa Fe down rated the 3751 class engines to 90 MPH service.

She is probably capable of still maintaining 90 MPH service but then she is an old machine and there is not any need to prove any speed records.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards,

Bob Kittel (5-23-04)

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